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Joined: Oct 2010
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What is the attitude of activists at this forum to the ETC group
http://www.etcgroup.org/

and to their anti-geoengineering campaign Hands off Mother Earth?
http://www.handsoffmotherearth.org/
(to download their handout go to
http://www.handsoffmotherearth.org/about/about-h-o-m-e-campaign/

and click on the "Hands off Mother Earth" pamphlet you see on the right, scrolling down a little.


Joined: May 2009
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I'm not familiar with this group. It seem that they want to stop chemtrails however.

What is your opinion of this group?

And do you know how we can get a copy of their report that they are giving to all politicians?


Russ Tanner, Founder, Administrator, Programmer
GlobalSkywatch.com
My Chemtrail Story
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 13,370
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I can tell you this: There is no such thing as man-made global warming. Right now, we are in a long-term cooling phase.

The global warming swindle was pushed upon the public in order to pass laws effectively unifying the world into a single political unit -- and -- to "justify" chemtrails (which is really intended to depopulate the Earth).

Here are documentation for all of this information:

Depopulation plan: http://urlbam.com/ha/M001R

No man-made global warming: http://urlbam.com/ha/6zz



Russ Tanner, Founder, Administrator, Programmer
GlobalSkywatch.com
My Chemtrail Story
Joined: Oct 2010
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The ETC group gave a press conference last December at the Copenhagen Climate Summit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S8aFi6liz8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dQYj_Iq-6U

About three months after that they established the Hands off Mother Earth campaign.

This is the handout they distribute through H.O.M.E.
http://www.handsoffmotherearth.org/about/about-h-o-m-e-campaign/

(scroll down a little and click the picture on the right)

(to be continued)

Joined: Oct 2010
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Unlike chemtrails activists, who are stigmatized as "conspiracy theorists", the ETC Group and H.O.M.E. are accorded a modest level of recognition in the international organizations where negotiations on climate are carried out between governments.

This is predicated on (1) their respecting the official myth that geoengineering is so far just a matter of proposals and small-scale experiments, and (2) their not being climate change "sceptics".

The real mainstream climate change "sceptics" have enough clout not to be excludable from public discussion, but this is rather resented, and the ETC Group and H.O.M.E. are perhaps tolerated as something of a counterbalance to the mainstream (i.e. not chemtrail activist) "sceptics".

I believe that the ETC group and H.O.M.E. are in fact opposed to the unacceptable types of geoengineering and are in a different category to the "internal opposition" among the geoengineers (people like Alan Robock) who are part of a project to soften up public opinion gradually.

My attitude is that chemtrails activists should designate the ETC Group and H.O.M.E. the only legitimate participants in the official geoengineering debate, refusing all recognition to - and dialogue with - scientists, politicians and entrepreneurs who do not publicly support H.O.M.E. (this would also involve exclusion of people not supporting H.O.M.E. but seeking the support of H.O.M.E.)

I don't believe there is much point arguing with the ETC Group and H.O.M.E. about whether aerosol spraying is actually occurring. It is something they will not want to talk about unless we start the argument. If they do come out with the official disinformation, we should just ignore this and continue to treat the ETC Group and H.O.M.E. as adjudicators of which types of geoengineering could be acceptable and which not (until such times as they show themselves unreliable on that subject, something they have not so far done).

We should try to get them into collaboration as much as possible on our own territory and our own terms, at the same time refusing recognition to all other "players".

The report they distributed in Copenhagen is here:
http://www.etcgroup.org/en/node/4966

The more recent briefings are here:
http://www.etcgroup.org/en




Last edited by enouranois; 10/21/10 11:42 AM.
Joined: May 2009
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My personal concern (I don't represent all chemtrail activists) about what you said about HOME is this:

The truth always becomes known eventually.

We know that:

(1) Global warming is a scientific fraud,

(2) Global warming is the "problem" being used to justify geoengineering.

(3) Geoengineering (actually a misnomer because it's not geoengineering at all, it's population control) is not isolated, it is global.

Considering these facts, there is no acceptable form of geoengineering. Those who lied about global warming are international criminals involved in a massive scientific conspiracy. They should be prosecuted.

The truth is what activists should be supporting; they should not be making concessions.

Organizations should not be considered as viable by chemtrial activists because they have some degree of existing credibility (especially when that credibility is based on false information). Organizations should be considered viable if they are accurate and have integrity (are telling the truth).

Supporting an organization (HOME) that (according to you) recognizes scientific frauds (global warming) and half truths (limited geoengineering) may seem like a good short-term solution, but in truth, the only long-term solution is to support an organization that is accurate and has integrity.

There is a methodology called the Hegelian dialectic that is used to control public opinion through a process of incorporating opposing viewpoints. Making concessions regarding truth is the only way this method of public control will work.

So, in short, we should make no concessions.

This must be a grassroots movement, and in order for it to be successful, more people need to be involved.


It's like saying that contrails are common. Once people make this concession, then they have opened the door to accepting chemtrails without opposition. Why? Because most new chemtrails look like "contrails".


The first question that I have is: "Is HOME part of a Hegelian dialectic operation?"

If not, then great. If they are just uninformed, then perhaps they would be open to being corrected.

Nevertheless, chemtrail activists should be willing to accept and promote nothing less than accurate truth. Otherwise, they will be creating the very bases for their own discrediting that the opposition are looking for.



Russ Tanner, Founder, Administrator, Programmer
GlobalSkywatch.com
My Chemtrail Story
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I do not believe they are uninformed.

They are compromised. They have made concessions in order to gain acceptance as "players".

It may be naive to try to "inform" people of this kind. By attempting to give them lessons, one succeeds merely in diminishing one's own status.

That is what happened to these activists in San Diego who tried to "inform" Alan Robock.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNrkp6a_6As&NR=1

Mind you, I put Robock in a different category, as I said, to ETC and H.O.M.E. He is "internal opposition", with no autonomy. ETC and H.O.M.E. are politically organized, not just individuals on the make. Doubtless Robock is pleased, though, when H.O.M.E. put his essays on their site, as they do.




Joined: Oct 2010
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As for the climate question, I don't know how you can speak with such self-confidence about these scientific matters, which have been politicized to the point of insanity.

The climate change discussion reminds me of the theological disputes on the Trinity that used to trigger street brawls in Constantinopole in the early Christian era.


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The thread "Irony: We May Spray Particles....etc." should not be locked because this phenomenon of the media (and not only the media)talking about what "may" happen when it is actually happening should not just be the subject of irony, ironically accepted in a spirit of cynicism. It should be subjected to analysis and some conclusions drawn.

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You are asking chemtrail activists to exclusively support an admittedly compromised organization?

An organization that continues to support the very scientific fraud (global warming) that was designed to (among other things) legitimize chemtrails?

An organization that does not even recognize that widespread chemtrail spraying exists?

If your assertions are true, your conclusion does not make sense.

I looked at the HOME (Hands Off Mother Earth) page called "What is Geoengineering" and found the following.

(1) The first sentence is arguably false:

"While humans have altered the planet’s climate before – this has so far been unintentional."

This makes a false concession about human-induced climate change. Human-induced climate change is the lie that was intended to be used to legitimize chemtrail spraying in the first place. So, why would we want to support an organization that supports the very lie that legitimizes that activity they are supposedly trying to stop (chemtrail spraying)?

Besides not making sense, this appears to be a Hegelian maneuver. Not good.

(2) This sentence is outright false:

"Some governments, engineers and corporations are now attempting to initiate real world tests of geoengineering technologies. They want to cross the line from discussing geoengineering in theory and in computer models to building and testing the technology in the real world. They are looking to governments to lend legitimacy to these high-risk experiments."

It's clear that these tests are not now being initiated. They are in full force and have been for years. I have witnessing spraying and have suffered (health-wise) dramatically as a result.

If we were to accept the claim that spraying is just now beginning on a limited basis, then the opposition will claim that (toxic) non-persistent chemtrails are contrails; a tactic they have already attempted to thrust on the public. These non-persistent chemtrails are NOT contrails.

(When they appear, I can smell then, taste, them, and I get severe health symptoms as a result. I have spoken to numerous other sensitive people who experience the same thing, and have for years since all of these non-persistent chemtrails (deceptively called "contrails") began to appear. More info: http://urlbam.com/ha/M003p)

The fact is, this crime against humanity is in full force and has been for years.

It makes no sense to support a compromised organization that supports half-truths.

Quote
ETC Group and H.O.M.E. are accorded a modest level of recognition in the international organizations...


The only reason HOME has any "credibility" among international organization may be because they are designed to pull the public into a compromise (Hegelian Dialectic).

"World leaders" are being sprayed too. It's unlikely that those working directly under these "leaders" have any inside knowledge or protection against this assault, so if/when they are informed about this, they will be furious. The same is true of state and local government officials. The way to stop this crime is to inform everyone.

Compromising the truth would be the death of any hope of success in the movement to stop toxic-spraying of the public (depopulation under the guise of eugenics under the guise of geoengineering).

As always, the power to create change is in the hands of the public. They usually don't exercise this power because they (historically) continue to forget that they have it.

Quote
As for the climate question, I don't know how you can speak with such self-confidence about these scientific matters, which have been politicized to the point of insanity.


I'm not the one doing the speaking. The uncorrupted scientists are:

http://urlbam.com/ha/6zz

http://urlbam.com/ha/M004B

http://urlbam.com/ha/M0049



Russ Tanner, Founder, Administrator, Programmer
GlobalSkywatch.com
My Chemtrail Story
Joined: Oct 2010
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Originally Posted by admin
You are asking chemtrail activists to exclusively support an admittedly compromised organization?

An organization that continues to support the very scientific fraud (global warming) that was designed to (among other things) legitimize chemtrails?


I am not asking chemtrails activists to support them. I am asking chemtrails activists to give them a role in OUR SCHEME OF THINGS.

I would not suggest even discussing the subject with them of whether geoengineering programmes are in planetary application or not. If they have anything to say on this subject it will be crap.

This is what we have already found anyway.
http://www.enouranois.gr/english/indexenglish.htm

(c) Open Letter to Hands off Mother Earth

Reply from Diana Bronson:
http://www.enouranois.gr/epistoles/ResponseopeletterHOMEcampaign.pdf

The point is that ETC Group and H.O.M.E. are opposed to geoengineering. If there are any forms of geoengineering that are inevitable, and therefore provisionally tolerable, the ETC Group on its current showing, are equipped to say what they are and distinguish them from the others, which we can all then oppose.

If they seem to be becoming unreliable on this subject as they already are on the subject of whether geoengineering programmes are already in global application, then we can withdraw the support.

At the moment the ETC group and H.O.M.E. are the most radical tolerated voices in the official discourse. They are allowed to "oppose" geoengineering because they are complicit in the fiction that it is not already happening, massively.

We should grant recognition to them and withdraw recognition from ALL OTHER PARTICIPANTS in the official disourse. Perhaps we will grant recognition to Ken Caldera, but not on the subject of geoengineering. Only on the subject of nuclear disarmament, which he claims to favour.

In our scenario we should remove them from their radical status and give them a conservative status. Instead of being the opponents of geoengineering in the official milieu they can become the supporters of geoengineering in our milieu.

One factor that you are not taking into account is that more and more climate change sceptics are now coming out in favour of geoengineering, including aerosol spraying. This is not true only of Lomborg. It is becoming a generalised phenomenon.

And it is nothing new. The coexistence of climate change scepticism and support for atmospheric geoengineering has been present from the beginning, from Edward Teller's "Sunscreen for Planet Earth".

http://www.hoover.org/publications/hoover-digest/article/6791

Our opponents are implementing a divide-and-rule strategy, with good cops like Caldera, Crutzen and Keith, who are prepared to acknowledge the worries of ecologists, and bad cops like Lowell Wood, who flatter the sceptics and their opinions on most subjects.

To counter this we must institute a good cop/bad cop division of labour also, so that we can have our OWN divide-and-rule strategy to divide and rule the opponent.

Our good cops can be the ETC group and HOME, who have some limited acceptance among the opponent. The bad cops can be people like you.

In any really successful good cop/bad cop division of labour, the bad cops must have some elementary understanding of the orientation and beliefs of the good cops.

This is what is needed.


Joined: Oct 2010
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Generally speaking I think that climate skeptic chemtrails activists should talk to to other climate skeptics - about chemtrails and geoengineering. Non-skeptic chemtrails activists should talk to other non-skeptics - about chemtrails and geoengineering.

We should not conduct discussions or arguments with each other about climate change.

If we do so we will never free ourselves from the mainstream diversionary climate change debate, which serves entirely to distract attention from what is actually happening: global chemtrailing.

And we will never succeed in making our own problematic the hegemonic one.

Although I am breaking my own rules by posting this link, I post the link to this Dialogue with a Climate Change Contrarian to illustrate my point:
http://www.enouranois.gr/english/political/Dialogue_with_a_Climate_Change_Contrarian.doc

What would you say to Mr. Ball?? Was he justified in breaking off communication with me??


Joined: Oct 2010
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How far does this get us???? Is it part of our duty to tell the ETC people
that atmospheric geoengineering is already a well-established planetary
reality, as if they don't KNOW? Or should we assign another role to them
other than to be the recipients of such protests??

Wayne


News Release
29 October 2010
www.etcgroup.org

Geoengineering Moratorium at UN Ministerial in Japan
Risky Climate Techno-fixes Blocked


NAGOYA, Japan - In a landmark consensus decision, the 193-member UN
Convention on Biological Diversity (CBD) will close its tenth biennial
meeting with a de facto moratorium on geoengineering projects and
experiments. "Any private or public experimentation or adventurism
intended to manipulate the planetary thermostat will be in violation of this
carefully crafted UN consensus," stated Silvia Ribeiro, Latin American
Director of ETC Group.

The agreement, reached during the ministerial portion of the two-week
meeting which included 110 environment ministers, asks governments to ensure
that no geoengineering activities take place until risks to the environment
and biodiversity and associated social, cultural and economic impacts have
been appropriately considered. The CBD secretariat was also instructed to
report back on various geoengineering proposals and potential
intergovernmental regulatory measures.

The unusually strong consensus decision builds on the 2008 moratorium on
ocean fertilization. That agreement, negotiated at COP 9 in Bonn, put the
brakes on a litany of failed "experiments" - both public and private - to
sequester atmospheric carbon dioxide in the oceans' depths by spreading
nutrients on the sea surface. Since then, attention has turned to a range
of futuristic proposals to block a percentage of solar radiation via
large-scale interventions in the atmosphere, stratosphere and outer space
that would alter global temperatures and precipitation patterns.

"This decision clearly places the governance of geoengineering in the United
Nations where it belongs," said ETC Group Executive Director Pat Mooney.
"This decision is a victory for common sense, and for precaution. It will
not inhibit legitimate scientific research. Decisions on geoengineering
cannot be made by small groups of scientists from a small group of countries
that establish self-serving 'voluntary guidelines' on climate hacking. What
little credibility such efforts may have had in some policy circles in the
global North has been shattered by this decision. The UK Royal Society and
its partners should cancel their Solar Radiation Management Governance
Initiative and respect that the world's governments have collectively
decided that future deliberations on geoengineering should take place in the
UN, where all countries have a seat at the table and where civil society can
watch and influence what they are doing."

Delegates in Nagoya have now clearly understood the potential threat that
deployment - or even field testing - of geoengineering technologies poses to
the protection of biodiversity. The decision was hammered out in long and
difficult late night sessions of a "friends of the chair" group, attended by
ETC Group, and adopted by the Working Group 1 Plenary on 27 October 2010.
The Chair of the climate and biodiversity negotiations called the final text
"a highly delicate compromise." All that remains to do now is gavel it
through in the final plenary at 6 PM Friday (Nagoya time).

"The decision is not perfect," said Neth Dano of ETC Group Philippines.
"Some delegations are understandably concerned that the interim definition
of geoengineering is too narrow because it does not include Carbon Capture
and Storage technologies. Before the next CBD meeting, there will be ample
opportunity to consider these questions in more detail. But climate
techno-fixes are now firmly on the UN agenda and will lead to important
debates as the 20th anniversary of the Earth Summit approaches. A change of
course is essential, and geoengineering is clearly not the way forward."

In Nagoya, Japan
Pat Mooney: mooney@etcgroup.org (Mobile +1-613-240-0045)
Silvia Ribeiro: silvia@etcgroup.org (Mobile (local): + 81 90 5036 4659)
Neth Dano: neth@etcgroup.org (Mobile: + 63-917-532-9369)?

In Montreal, Canada:
Diana Bronson: diana@etcgroup.org (Mobile: +1-514-629-9236)
Jim Thomas: jim@etcgroup.org (Mobile: +1-514-516-5759)?

Note to Editors:
The full texts of the relevant decisions on geoengineering are copied below:

Under Climate Change and Biodiversity (UNEP/CBD/COP/10/L.36)

8. Invites Parties and other Governments, according to national
circumstance and priorities, as well as relevant organizations and
processes, to consider the guidance below on ways to conserve, sustainably
use and restore biodiversity and ecosystem services while contributing to
climate-change mitigation and adaptation:
....
(w) Ensure, in line and consistent with decision IX/16 C, on ocean
fertilization and biodiversity and climate change, in the absence of science
based, global, transparent and effective control and regulatory mechanisms
for geo-engineering, and in accordance with the precautionary approach and
Article 14 of the Convention, that no climate-related geo-engineering
activities[1] that may affect biodiversity take place, until there is an
adequate scientific basis on which to justify such activities and
appropriate consideration of the associated risks for the environment and
biodiversity and associated social, economic and cultural impacts, with the
exception of small scale scientific research studies that would be conducted
in a controlled setting in accordance with Article 3 of the Convention, and
only if they are justified by the need to gather specific scientific data
and are subject to a thorough prior assessment of the potential impacts on
the environment;

[1] Without prejudice to future deliberations on the definition of
geo-engineering activities, understanding that any technologies that
deliberately reduce solar insolation or increase carbon sequestration from
the atmosphere on a large scale that may affect biodiversity (excluding
carbon capture and storage from fossil fuels when it captures carbon dioxide
before it is released into the atmosphere) should be considered as forms of
geo-engineering which are relevant to the Convention on Biological Diversity
until a more precise definition can be developed. Noting that solar
insolation is defined as a measure of solar radiation energy received on a
given surface area in a given hour and that carbon sequestration is defined
as the process of increasing the carbon content of a reservoir/pool other
than the atmosphere.
AND


9. Requests the Executive Secretary to:
..
(o) Compile and synthesize available scientific information, and views and
experiences of indigenous and local communities and other stakeholders, on
the possible impacts of geo-engineering techniques on biodiversity and
associated social, economic and cultural considerations, and options on
definitions and understandings of climate-related geo-engineering relevant
to the Convention on Biological Diversity and make it available for
consideration at a meeting of the Subsidiary Body on Scientific, Technical
and Technological Advice prior to the eleventh meeting of the Conference of
the Parties;
(p) Taking into account the possible need for science based global,
transparent and effective control and regulatory mechanisms, subject to the
availability of financial resources, undertake a study on gaps in such
existing mechanisms for climate-related geo-engineering relevant to the
Convention on Biological Diversity, bearing in mind that such mechanisms may
not be best placed under the Convention on Biological Diversity, for
consideration by the Subsidiary Body on Scientific Technical and
Technological Advice prior to a future meeting of the Conference of the
Parties and to communicate the results to relevant organizations;

Under New and Emerging Issues UNEP/CBD/COP/10/L.2 :

4. Invites Parties, other Governments and relevant organizations to
submit information on synthetic biology and geo-engineering, for the
consideration by the Subsidiary Body on Scientific, Technical and
Technological Advice, in accordance with the procedures of decision IX/29,
while applying the precautionary approach to the field release of synthetic
life, cell or genome into the environment;

Under Marine and Coastal Biodiversity UNEP/CBD/COP/10/L.42

13 Reaffirming that the programme of work still corresponds to the global
priorities, has been further strengthened through decisions VIII/21,
VIII/22, VIII/24, and IX/20, but is not fully implemented, and therefore
encourages Parties to continue to implement these programme elements, and
endorses the following guidance, where applicable and in accordance with
national capacity and circumstances, for enhanced implementation:

(e) Ensuring that no ocean fertilization takes place unless in accordance
with decision IX/16 C and taking note of the report
(UNEP/CBD/SBSTTA/14/INF/7) and development noted para 57 - 62;

Impacts of ocean fertilization on marine and coastal biodiversity
57. Welcomes the report on compilation and synthesis of available
scientific information on potential impacts of direct human-induced ocean
fertilization on marine biodiversity (UNEP/CBD/SBSTTA/14/INF/7), which was
prepared in collaboration with United Nations Environment Programme-World
Conservation Monitoring Centre (UNEP-WCMC) and the International Maritime
Organization in pursuance of paragraph 3 of decision IX/20;
58. Recalling the important decision IX/16 C on ocean fertilization,
reaffirming the precautionary approach, recognizes that given the scientific
uncertainty that exists, significant concern surrounds the potential
intended and unintended impacts of large-scale ocean fertilization on marine
ecosystem structure and function, including the sensitivity of species and
habitats and the physiological changes induced by micro-nutrient and
macro-nutrient additions to surface waters as well as the possibility of
persistent alteration of an ecosystem, and requests Parties to implement
decision IX/16 C;
59. Notes that the governing bodies under the London Convention and
Protocol adopted in 2008 resolution LC-LP.1 (2008) on the regulation of
ocean fertilization, in which Contracting Parties declared, inter alia, that
given the present state of knowledge, ocean fertilization activities other
than legitimate scientific research should not be allowed;
60. Recognizes the work under way within the context of the London
Convention and London Protocol to contribute to the development of a
regulatory mechanism referred to in decision IX/16 C, and invites Parties
and other Governments to act in accordance with the Resolution LC-LP.2(2010)
of the London Convention and Protocol ;
61. Notes that in order to provide reliable predictions on the potential
adverse impacts on marine biodiversity of activities involving ocean
fertilization, further work to enhance our knowledge and modelling of ocean
biogeochemical processes is required, in accordance with decision IX/16 (c)
and taking into account decision IX/20 and LC-LP.2 (2010);
62. Notes also that there is a pressing need for research to advance our
understanding of marine ecosystem dynamics and the role of the ocean in the
global carbon cycle;
Geopiracy: The Case Against Geoengineering is a new publication by ETC Group
that provides an overview of the issues involved.



-----

For more information about our work, please visit our website at
http://www.etcgroup.org/

Interested in supporting our work? Donate Here!
http://www.etcgroup.org/en/node/5195

ETC Group is a registered Charity in Canada. ETC Headquarters are at:
431 Gilmour Street, Second Floor
Ottawa, ON K2P-0R5
Canada


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Mauro Oliveira
http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/
and Dane Wigington
http://chemtrailsnorthnz.wordpress....in-our-environment-july-19-2010-meeting/
have chosen to start a fight with Jim Thomas of the ETC group in response to that group's public relations success of securing a "moratorium on geoengineering" from the UN conference on biodiversity.

Mauro says: "Your moratorium has stopped NOTHING Jim. They are spraying us right now. And now they can REALLY pour it on....cause according to you...THEY
DON'T EXIST and those lines.....well, I guess ETC now leads in the cover-up.
You must be mad."

And Dane Wigington says: " It now appears that ETC is doing more harm than good by their misguided attempt to give people the impression that due to their "moratorium", there is no need to worry about geoengineering. This is a total lie. We are being pounded, day in and day out, with toxic geoengineering fallout. Hundreds of tests confirm this horrific assault on all that lives.
If ETC has any moral conviction left in it, the group will make the choice to start telling the truth."

I have suggested to Mauro and Dane that if they wish to protest the ETC group/Hands off Mother Earth's stance (which is not new and must be known to both Mauro and Dane, as to the rest of us, for one or more years in the case of the ETC group) they should become signatories to the "Open Letter to H.O.M.E." sent to Diana Bronson and Jim Thomas last summer by the Greek Movement Against Chemical Aerial Spraying

http://www.enouranois.gr/english/indexenglish.htm

and henceforth assume that the ETC people know that aerosol spraying is a planetary reality as well as we do and for reasons best known to themselves, which they are NOT explaining convincingly, pretend not to.

Accept this as situational data. Any other stance towards ETC is childish.




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